Curse

Missing HB · Aug 16, 2011, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

All viable HA, GvG, HB, TA, etc builds include at least one Monk. But there are no viable HA, GvG, HB, TA etc builds with ALL Monks (yes, even Shovespike needs a Warrior). You can't win with 5-6 melee parties in JQ, so you say melee are useless. But you can't win with 5-6 Monk parties in HA either. So Monks are useless. Agree?

So you can wait for your opponents to finish capping a shrine and then recap it 3 seconds later. But your opponents can also wait for you to finish capping a shrine and then recap it 3 seconds later. What's your point?

And those formats are organized thus everyone got a role relying on what he will face. Also, that's the same problem people obviously don't understand on this forum : melee aren't useless , they are useless in comparaison to other meta builds out there...

Obviously, i'm not saying to make a melee be able to solo a shrine in 3 sec, it would be a complete joke... But, is that quite fair to not be able to kill a single NPC out of 5 when some can cap a shrine without even being hit in 3 seconds ?? ( and i see where you will come, a bar that can kill an NPC will usually have no other use)
NPC's IA is just terrible ( but it goes for the whole game though when you know you can solo mobs with conjure phantasm only....).

Jeydra · Aug 17, 2011, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Melee are useless in comparison to all the other meta builds out there except melee also kills all the other meta builds out there? Sorry, but what is this I don't even ...

Your view of JQ seems to be only "CAP SHRINES". That's just too narrow. There are so many other important things to do that helps you win games, and while capping is important, it is only one of many. I used to win 90% of my matches playing a build that kills Archers painfully slowly + is unable to capture shrines, just saying.

Bobby Sox · Aug 27, 2011, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I used to win 90% of my matches playing a build that kills Archers painfully slowly + is unable to capture shrines, just saying.

I just want to point out that this is exactly what the OP was worried about from the beginning. You've been skirting around the subject through the whole thread, but the original suggestions were to lessen that very issue. You may have been fortunate enough to win with such a "painfully slow" build, but it does not change the fact that it was unable to capture the three mines, and had trouble with the other six shrines.

Back on topic, in my opinion, the simplest change in terms of programming would be to rework some Paragon and a Warrior skill or two (though the latter could pose a threat to GvG again if pulled off incorrectly). Warriors used to run (the deemed "newb skill") Defy Pain to slowly, yet steadily take out mines until the GvG crowd latched onto it, which then led to it's nerf. Without reverting Defy Pain, the best bet might be to turn an elite into something similar to Vow of Silence.

Also, I would like to throw out a tidbit of information that very few people seem to realize about Paragons. While I admit that the skill is still underpowered and all, there's a useful trick in JQ especially, that in the right situation can make Angelic Bond shine. If you cast AB in earshot of a shrine full of NPCs, and one of these "3 second" nukers attempts to take down the shrine, should all NPCs receive fatal damage at the same moment, it will save every one of them. This includes by degeneration, etc. It is a pity, though, that most other Paragon skills were made "party member" only, so following up becomes difficult.

Jeydra · Aug 27, 2011, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Don't know if you recognized it, but I won my games despite being "painfully slow" at killing Archers because I killed turtles left right and centre and could handle all builds except - what else? - melee in a 1v1. I won games despite Luxons holding both Yellow and Green for almost the entire match because they still got no jade through.

Call it fortunate if you want, but I think having a 90% win rate after over a hundred games speaks for itself.

Bobby Sox · Aug 27, 2011, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Call it fortunate if you want, but I think having a 90% win rate after over a hundred games speaks for itself.

With the number of bots that have invaded JQ, it becomes obsolete, anyways. However, with so many bots on the map, which only C-target and spam skills, I find that playing a shrine capper is all the more imporatant.

Jeydra · Aug 28, 2011, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Don't understand, rephrase please.

Bobby Sox · Aug 31, 2011, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Don't understand, rephrase please.

Basically, what I meant was that because the bots in JQ follow a fairly simple script to target the nearest enemy (player or npc) and spam skills, I cannot count on them to do any of the capping. If I am playing any role beyond a capper and am paired up with as many bots as I run into on a regular basis (I've had several matches where I was the only human player and countless more where I was one of 2-5 between the two teams), we are almost guaranteed to lose the match.

Fluffy Kittens · Aug 31, 2011, 08:48 PM // 20:48

do what I do: play YAA sin and win all

chuckles79 · Sep 06, 2011, 04:54 AM // 04:54

I think the problem with melee in JQ is that you have to think to use melee in JQ.

Dervs, tank up and get a speed buff and enjoy ganking the shrine

Warriors, bring more damage and work with a teammate to cap shrines. Be the meat shield while the monks and eles nuke the shrine. Then chase off enemy casters who get near

Assassins. shadow step in, kill shrine capper or monk healing shrine NPCs. No other class can end the threat of a healing monk faster or better.

Don't be upset about not being able to play your class how you would like, but learn how to use that class best.

JQ is unique in GW PvP in that ANY class can be effective there. Even my para does a good job when used correctly.

Missing HB · Sep 06, 2011, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Still, a melee character used with big experience will usually be less useful than a capper..
Obviously, i think there's a confusion people don't get : melee is surely effective once you got the shrines... but you already need to have the shrines... and that's usually about the team who has most cappers in team..

On a side note : melee die faster to shrine keepers with this flux whereas OP cappers still don't get hit... that's quite strong...

Fluffy Kittens · Sep 06, 2011, 08:50 AM // 08:50

You need melee to protect shrines and kill their cappers.

Jeydra · Sep 06, 2011, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Still, a melee character used with big experience will usually be less useful than a capper..
Obviously, i think there's a confusion people don't get : melee is surely effective once you got the shrines... but you already need to have the shrines... and that's usually about the team who has most cappers in team..

On a side note : melee die faster to shrine keepers with this flux whereas OP cappers still don't get hit... that's quite strong...

So despite the fact that all the meta capper bars deal armour-ignoring damage and so gain zero benefit from the flux while having to deal with all the drawbacks, you think "OP cappers still don't get hit"?

If you can have only one profession in JQ, you'd better have a capper, but if you already have lots of cappers you'd be better off with something else.

On a side note: if you're trying to cap shrines with melee, you're doing something wrong.

Missing HB · Sep 06, 2011, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So despite the fact that all the meta capper bars deal armour-ignoring damage and so gain zero benefit from the flux while having to deal with all the drawbacks, you think "OP cappers still don't get hit"?

A ranger can do better than a melee what you mention, which is make RoJ monks and bomber necros useless... Furthermore, you can also kill shrines and juggs/turtle too...
Besides, a mesmer can do it also quite efficiently...

If you die to a wastrels sin or to a warrior/dervish.. then i'm sorry but you're a joke( well, i might not consider dealing with wastrel sins considering i knew how to by experience in deleted format...)...

Jeydra · Sep 06, 2011, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Considering how none of the meta capper bars can defend themselves against a Wastrel's Sin or Warrior / Dervish, I don't see why it is a joke. Incidentally, you may have to kill players because they are doing something else other than capping (like what? Fill in the blank, because I don't think you're seeing anything in JQ other than "CAP YOU RETARDS").

Jk Arrow · Sep 06, 2011, 04:34 PM // 16:34

I've been playing quite a lot of JQ the past few months. Interestingly enough, I find my win % is highest when I play Dervish. Second is pretty even between Mesmer and Necro. Third tier would be Monk or Ele.

Every build in JQ is a compromise. You can do 1-3 things out of a possible 4-5 that could help your team win. For me playing Derv, I can cap ranger shrines easily (allowing true cappers to focus on the quarries), I can kill carriers and pretty much any player 1v1 (other than healing monks) and honestly, it's easier if it is 1v2 or more. With a shadow step I have decent mobily, and Dash helps to avoid WW, WD damage. So while I don't directly cap to win, I help others on my team to focus on capping or running carriers.

Other melee I find to be far less dynamic and more limited to player hunting so I don't run them.

Capping builds are so common that by doing one of the other tasks that help the team win helps more than running another capper.

Missing HB · Sep 06, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Considering how none of the meta capper bars can defend themselves against a Wastrel's Sin or Warrior / Dervish, I don't see why it is a joke. Incidentally, you may have to kill players because they are doing something else other than capping (like what? Fill in the blank, because I don't think you're seeing anything in JQ other than "CAP YOU RETARDS").

Wastrel sin dies to N/A by killing him... Wastrel sin doesn't kill a roj monk, except if that one can't watch the field...

Apart of that, you need to catch those 2 before they get to the shrine... apart build such as YAA( which is ranged skill not melee , just saying..), you usually get to the shrine easily...

What i meant is that, a ranger or mesmer( he always has rend ) can do that job much more efficiently than those 2 classes...

I really don't get your point, so maybe i'm just not lucky with team match ups considering all are about roj monks bombers and 123 mesmers.. or oppositely, you are... but still objectively, i do believe that melee isn't a must in that format...
I do play melee a lot of time in fact in JQ, as sin or warrior especially... but what you have to do on those classes relies too much on what your teammates are doing.. andd that's not a thing specially fun to expect from a random format....

gw_poster · Sep 06, 2011, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Finally it took literally like 50 posts for somebody to discuss the importance of a ranger in JQ! (there was a mention of ranger early on but with no substantive commentary). The whole setup of the JQ map is made for ranged fighting imo. Rangers tend to excel in yhe JQ format if played correctly. There are and have been meta ranger bars used in JQ for years now (Melshot being one of the most effective) I'm not quite sure how you can have this far of a discussion of ranged vs melee in JQ without a broader discussion including the professions that seem to be made for it

On a side note: no ranger should ever let a monk kill them if caught in a skirmish. Smite kd bfd, either riot the Jesus beam or at the very least side step it lol

Jk Arrow · Sep 06, 2011, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by gw_poster

Finally it took literally like 50 posts for somebody to discuss the importance of a ranger in JQ! ...more

I guess I forgot to mention I do play ranger in JQ sometimes. I would put them in the third tier with Monk and Ele. I don't normally play the other classes in JQ.

Rangers are not as good in JQ as you make them out to be. Sure they can be annoying, fighting small skirmishes, cripping things, applying degen, interrupting some cap skills, maybe used to cap with a flat bow and splinter barrage... The problem is that other toons can do most of these things better or at least as well with more utility. I'd liken them to an inferior mesmer build. You can cap, you can int, but you probably can't kill anybody 1v1 and you'll have a hard time killing a carrier.

If you run something like Mel's, you further limit your ability by no longer being able to cap. I've found 2 ranger builds that seem to work somewhat in JQ. Those being a R/Me Archer's Signet degen build and R/Rt Splinter Barrage.

Missing HB · Sep 07, 2011, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jk Arrow

You can cap, you can int, but you probably can't kill anybody 1v1 and you'll have a hard time killing a carrier.

Well, you can make sure someone is useless at least...
- Rupting RoJ makes the Mo/p useless generally
- Natural Stride + Pin Shot makes melee cspacing on you useless
- Heats Dodgeing is easy

The problem, which is the main for all JQ problems anyway, is NPC's health :
I was running poison arrow + barbed arrows.... With a 33% poison grip, you just have to hit a luxon archer once and it dies....